#87 - Camilla Marcus @ west~bourne - Chef Curation & Cultural Persuasion

[00:00:12] Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for brands, retailers, investors, and other food system stakeholders to learn about the consumer brands supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host Kyle, joined by my co-host AC, who's going to take us into the episode.

[00:00:34] On this episode, we have Camilla Marcus, who is the founder and CEO at Westbourne. Westbourne is supporting regenerative agriculture with their chef-driven snacks and pantry staples, all impeccably sourced, utilizing regenerative, sustainable, and organic ingredients. The brand's ethos is eat well, do better, gather often.

[00:00:54] In this episode, Camilla shares her journey from chef to brand founder, the philosophy behind Westbourne's unique model, the challenges and triumphs of leading with sustainability in the CPG space, and how Camilla is driving impact far beyond the plate.

[00:01:09] We talk about Westbourne's new regenerative holiday box, Camilla's new cookbook, My Regenerative Kitchen, and celebrate their recent big win with the fresh market. Let's go.

[00:01:21] What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Regen Brands podcast. Very excited today to have our friend Camilla from Westbourne with us. So welcome, Camilla.

[00:01:30] Hi.

[00:01:31] We're super excited to have you. I briefly perused the website, and I've got to say, it's got like posh vibes. Hopefully you don't take that the wrong way. It's just like, it seems super, super high-end, very, very high quality, and I'm excited to get more.

[00:01:42] Chef curated vibes, Kyle.

[00:01:45] See, there you go. I'm here to learn.

[00:01:47] I'll take posh. I'm into that.

[00:01:49] I've got a funny story about posh, like where that actually came from. It stands for Port Outbound Starboard Home, and it's just a thing where they used to mark the high-end luggage on passenger freight from like London to France.

[00:02:03] Did you Google that one day? You were like, I'm into learning what posh is.

[00:02:07] Somebody told me what it was.

[00:02:08] I've never heard anyone say that.

[00:02:10] Someone told me I used to live with a British dude, and it just stuck. I thought it was so interesting.

[00:02:15] Oh, man.

[00:02:16] Well, the name, you know, Westbourne, obviously, is... I actually used to live on Westbourne Drive in LA and, you know, had family who lived on Westbourne Grove in London.

[00:02:25] So we actually have a lot of people who either think, you know, depending on the place, but we had a lot of, you know, my old restaurant, we had a lot of Londoners, and they're like, this is from London.

[00:02:35] I'm like, it's not.

[00:02:37] So I'll take posh.

[00:02:38] Hey, it fits in well. We didn't plan this, but somehow it made sense, which I appreciate.

[00:02:44] Well, for those who are not familiar with Westbourne, give us a quick lay of the land.

[00:02:48] Like, what sort of products do you produce, and where can people find Westbourne products today?

[00:02:52] Yeah. So look, we're on a mission to build the next generation's brand focused on what I think is true sustainability.

[00:02:58] So regeneratively sourced, carbon neutral supply chain, plastic free from the start.

[00:03:05] You know, you look at how our generation consumes with retail and beauty and everything's about what packaging it comes in and, you know, formulation and what's in everything.

[00:03:16] And then you go down the grocery aisle and a lot of the better for you brands are filled with plastic, filled with preservatives, and frankly, not really focused on carbon, even though they talk about sustainability.

[00:03:27] So our hero products right now are avocado oil.

[00:03:30] We have a finishing and a cooking oil, 100% pure, again, plastic free, even our tamper bands are backyard compostable.

[00:03:39] And then we do a ton of specialty kind of limited edition drops on the website.

[00:03:43] We've got a whole suite of new products coming down the pike in 2025.

[00:03:48] But, you know, again, really sort of we're only a couple of years in and, you know, starting to test different kinds of products used.

[00:03:55] But again, the whole goal is really how do you consume in a way that's mindful of the climate and really thinking about the supply chain from, you know, what we say, seed to shelf.

[00:04:05] Oh, yeah.

[00:04:06] Love it.

[00:04:06] Love it.

[00:04:07] Yeah, I've been following you for a couple of years now, Camilla, and I'm excited to just hear all of your learnings.

[00:04:12] Right.

[00:04:12] Because I've been seeing all the fun things that y'all are doing.

[00:04:14] And you're just a very unique and interesting, I think, person as a brand founder.

[00:04:19] Chef.

[00:04:20] What's next?

[00:04:20] You have a JD.

[00:04:21] You have an MBA.

[00:04:22] Like, you've done all this activist work.

[00:04:25] So just fill us in on you.

[00:04:27] Like, yeah.

[00:04:29] Tell us about you and, like, why you wanted to start a food brand.

[00:04:32] Yeah.

[00:04:33] I mean, to be fair, food's really always been my love language, even when I was younger.

[00:04:38] It's funny, when you look back at your life, right, especially childhood, and when you have kids, you reflect a lot about sort of how you were raised.

[00:04:45] Mrs. Gooch was my next door neighbor.

[00:04:47] She was the predecessor to Whole Foods on the West Coast.

[00:04:50] Whole Foods bought her stores.

[00:04:52] And, you know, I was always, like, her taste tester.

[00:04:54] I mean, I was that kid that ate anything, the crazier, the better.

[00:04:58] You know, I'm a very high-octane person.

[00:04:59] So I would go to sushi restaurants back in the day when, you know, no one was eating sushi.

[00:05:04] And I'd say, you know, try and scare me.

[00:05:06] Try and intimidate me.

[00:05:07] I was definitely that kind of kid.

[00:05:09] But I think I just always saw the power of food.

[00:05:12] I mean, every, right, we eat multiple times a day.

[00:05:14] I always say, from an investment standpoint, it's 100% total addressable market.

[00:05:18] It is the thing we have to do so many times.

[00:05:21] And what if that could have a compound impact?

[00:05:24] So I think that my passion was always food.

[00:05:26] I cooked for everyone in college.

[00:05:28] I went to culinary school right out of college.

[00:05:30] I just always had that feeling of it's our most universal language.

[00:05:35] It's what brings us together.

[00:05:36] There are, I love sort of the genealogy, right?

[00:05:39] Even chicken soup, right?

[00:05:41] Every culture has some version of that.

[00:05:43] And it's something that we can all relate to and we're all raised with.

[00:05:46] And I don't know.

[00:05:47] I, I, I'm a glass half full kind of person, sunny side of the street, you know, kind of optimist.

[00:05:54] And I just love the power of food.

[00:05:56] It's something we can all understand and we share no matter what differences we think we have.

[00:06:01] And, you know, there's nothing more human than gathering around a table.

[00:06:05] I love that answer.

[00:06:06] And I'm curious to get a little bit more of like the professional background.

[00:06:09] Like you mentioned you went to culinary school after college.

[00:06:11] So like where did the journey start in food and how did it lead to the launch of Westbourne as a brand?

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:18] I mean, even in college, you know, my, I met my husband in college and we were like the funny college students going to like downtown Philly to, you know, the hole in the wall restaurant and getting to know the chef.

[00:06:29] And just kind of consuming things that way.

[00:06:32] We lived abroad in Rome and, you know, I cooked probably twice a week for everyone we knew in town.

[00:06:38] And then again, no matter how far we always went to the like restaurant that no one else had heard about.

[00:06:44] And it was always how I was, even when I was younger, which is funny because I don't really come from a food family.

[00:06:49] Like my parents laugh.

[00:06:50] They're like, we don't really understand why you're so into this.

[00:06:55] And I think also, you know, you asked sort of professional.

[00:06:58] I mean, growing up, my two, you know, biggest strengths was math.

[00:07:02] And then, you know, I was like multiple grades ahead in math and then also studio art.

[00:07:07] So I think for me, that's also where cooking came as just spoke to my left brain, right brain.

[00:07:12] Like it's so creative, but it also has this tactical, you know, operational piece to it.

[00:07:18] And I always laugh because cooks always say that they're bad at math and science.

[00:07:22] And I'm like, you're doing physics and chemistry.

[00:07:23] Like you just don't actually realize it.

[00:07:25] Yeah.

[00:07:25] Like I asked you to convert all these weights.

[00:07:27] You could do it like this, but you're telling everyone that you're bad at math, which is sort of funny.

[00:07:32] And I also think it's interesting.

[00:07:34] There's so many creatives that I think are told by society, like, you know, you're not smart or you're not smart in the right way and in a mainstream way.

[00:07:42] But actually they're doing it absolutely every day.

[00:07:45] So I loved that.

[00:07:47] So when I came out of college, I went straight to culinary school, went to the French Culinary Institute and totally fell in love with it.

[00:07:54] I mean, my class had people from 20 different countries, all different ages, all different backgrounds.

[00:08:00] And, you know, I wrote about this in my new cookbook, but I remember loving the vegetarian station because it was like the dump station.

[00:08:08] There's no recipes.

[00:08:09] You didn't have to follow the rules, which I'm not very good at anyway.

[00:08:12] And it was all the stuff from the week that like no one knew what to do with.

[00:08:15] And they'd be like, OK, you know, at the time they had Le Cole.

[00:08:18] I don't think it's open anymore.

[00:08:20] But you got to work in a real restaurant, like people paying, you know, paying.

[00:08:24] But obviously it was student led and run by the teachers.

[00:08:27] But it was the one station where like no one wanted anything to do with it.

[00:08:30] And most of the students hated it.

[00:08:32] Right. They wanted to be on Saucy.

[00:08:33] They wanted to like prove they could cook meat.

[00:08:35] And I was like, I've got that.

[00:08:36] But that's also, you know, rubric.

[00:08:38] Right. It's the same dish every night, which to me is like, yeah, I never people always ask me, what's your specialty?

[00:08:43] I'm like, I hate cooking things twice.

[00:08:45] Honestly, making a cookbook was like very challenging to have to make something multiple times.

[00:08:50] So I loved it.

[00:08:51] It was like total gloves off.

[00:08:53] You know, you could do whatever you wanted.

[00:08:55] And I think for me, you know, again, the intensity sort of not knowing how the night's going to go and, you know, having to make something out of chaos very much speaks to my soul.

[00:09:07] So then look, 2008 happened.

[00:09:09] Like we were all, you know, the first fired from jobs.

[00:09:13] Most of my friends left the country.

[00:09:14] Like people kind of forget.

[00:09:16] I remember when COVID hit and people were, you know, a lot of my employees were pretty distraught.

[00:09:20] And I said, it really wasn't the same.

[00:09:22] 2008, it was like the lights were really off.

[00:09:24] And especially if you were young and had no work experience, like no one was hiring.

[00:09:28] So I went to grad school, turned into a JD MBA, never intended to practice law.

[00:09:34] But I use it every single day.

[00:09:36] I mean, food is the most, you know, compliance oriented business.

[00:09:41] Restaurants are like a hornet's nest of law.

[00:09:44] So I feel very grateful that I have that background.

[00:09:47] I use it pretty much every day.

[00:09:49] Sometimes my team's like, I think, you know, a little bit too much.

[00:09:51] Like other people just don't care about this stuff.

[00:09:53] I'm like, I know I wish I could sort of turn that part of my brain off sometimes.

[00:09:57] But yeah, I mean, I would say I'm sort of a Swiss army knife.

[00:10:00] I mean, I just kind of was never afraid to jump into something different, even if it wasn't

[00:10:07] totally, you know, the path.

[00:10:08] I don't know that I even believe in the path.

[00:10:10] And when I graduated, ended up in real estate finance doing private equity investments.

[00:10:17] That's shocking me here.

[00:10:19] That's like so, that was not on my bingo card, but sorry.

[00:10:22] Well, what happened was, you know, again, you have to remember the context, you know,

[00:10:27] 2012, the world was like slowly coming back.

[00:10:31] And, you know, I at that time was already, I had worked with Tom Colicchio.

[00:10:35] I was already talking to Danny Meyer and his team.

[00:10:38] And I sort of said, like, I think I need, right, in any food business, you know, retail, right?

[00:10:45] Like a restaurant, your real estate's kind of the most important thing.

[00:10:48] It makes or breaks a restaurant.

[00:10:50] Location, your deal, how you're going to make money, what the, you know, covenants are operationally.

[00:10:55] So I sort of said to them, look, like, I think I need this background.

[00:10:58] And also the younger you are, I always tell people, the younger you are, do the harder jobs.

[00:11:02] It's just hard.

[00:11:04] You know, even people want to go into cooking.

[00:11:05] I'm like, the time to be a line cook is in your 20s when you have unlimited energy.

[00:11:08] You have no responsibility.

[00:11:10] Like, it doesn't really matter what you make.

[00:11:12] Like, you've got to do the hard stuff early.

[00:11:14] So I decided to do it just to really understand from the inside out, like, what would make a restaurant successful or not?

[00:11:21] And then ended up back with Danny.

[00:11:23] So we'd kept in touch that whole time.

[00:11:25] And it was wild.

[00:11:27] I mean, just wild times.

[00:11:28] And I think that's where I sort of re-found my love for sustainability.

[00:11:33] I mean, I always had seen, I think, in a big way how much restaurants influence popular culture.

[00:11:39] And this is kind of, again, on the precipice of chefs becoming, you know, household names and celebrities.

[00:11:45] And this is pre-products and media.

[00:11:48] I mean, I remember even when I started at the company and I said to Danny, I think we should pitch you for, like, a Netflix show and some, like, a deal.

[00:11:55] And he was like, who wants to be on TV?

[00:11:57] You know, and now it's like that's where a lot of chefs are really making their money is, you know.

[00:12:02] Obviously, Top Chef had been around then.

[00:12:04] And, you know, Tom really broke that category.

[00:12:07] But, you know, sort of early days, again, of seeing how food could be just in the zeitgeist.

[00:12:13] And I think that definitely influences what I'm building at Westborn, which is, like, we just want to make regenerative cool, right?

[00:12:19] Like, just as much as organic is on the tip of everyone's tongue or, you know, clean beauty, right?

[00:12:26] Everyone's talking about clean beauty and formulation and what you're putting on your body.

[00:12:31] And, you know, our sole mission is getting people to care about that with stuff that goes inside their body.

[00:12:39] What was, like, the first time you heard the term regenerative or why did it resonate?

[00:12:42] Like, what about that?

[00:12:45] Like, what's your regen story?

[00:12:46] I think that I discovered it when I was in early days of working on my first restaurant, which was also called Westborn in Soho in New York.

[00:12:57] You know, around the time that I was, like, you know, leaving Union Square Hospitality Group, a lot of that driven by, like, you know, the company just wasn't focused on sustainability.

[00:13:08] They weren't talking about the supply chain.

[00:13:10] We weren't, you know, I even remember sitting down with Randy Garudi at Shake Shack.

[00:13:14] And I was, like, at some point, like, why aren't you doing an upcycled veggie burger?

[00:13:18] Like, look how much food waste we have from all these businesses.

[00:13:21] Like, you could make a veggie burger the thing.

[00:13:24] We have world-renowned chefs.

[00:13:25] We could come up with the world's greatest formulation.

[00:13:28] Like, no one's really doing that.

[00:13:29] But the world is moving plant-based.

[00:13:31] So, you know, I'd say probably around that time when Third Plate, you know, and Dan Barber published Third Plate, which I have read cover to cover many, many times.

[00:13:40] I love when people are like, I've heard of it.

[00:13:42] I'm like, have you read it?

[00:13:43] And they're like, well, we have it.

[00:13:46] And I'm like, okay, but you need to open it and actually read it.

[00:13:48] And so I think it was probably around that time that I first heard, you know, the word regenerative and then really deep dove into what does that mean?

[00:13:57] And how can we be part of it?

[00:13:59] And what can we do to really get that into, again, sort of pop culture, if you will?

[00:14:04] So I just remember reading his book and being like, he's cracked it open, but a lot of people are not going to read this and they're not going to understand what to do.

[00:14:14] And so with my restaurant sourcing through certain farms, thinking a lot about how we put food on a plate, right?

[00:14:23] Kale, restaurants made kale cool.

[00:14:25] Restaurants make a lot of new ingredients sort of coveted.

[00:14:29] And so that's where I think that kernel of how can the food system be transformed by a restaurant, by chefs, by products.

[00:14:38] To me, that's really what changes the narrative.

[00:14:40] And it's amazingly powerful.

[00:14:42] I mean, and I think without a lot of credit, you know, nothing like COVID to humble restaurateurs and chefs.

[00:14:48] We were told very clearly by this country that they don't give, you know, two cents about us.

[00:14:53] So, you know, there's an interesting dichotomy in that when you think about, you know, food in this country.

[00:14:58] It's funny, you were saying posh and referencing the UK.

[00:15:02] You know, in Europe, restaurants and food businesses are super prestigious.

[00:15:06] I mean, it is a career.

[00:15:08] It is a lifetime career.

[00:15:09] It is respected.

[00:15:11] They are, right?

[00:15:12] That's why bodegas are nicer than some of our Michelin restaurants, right?

[00:15:16] You go to a corner store in France and it's like some of the best direct from farm produce that you're going to get.

[00:15:22] And here we really have to work for it.

[00:15:26] There's just this stranglehold from the Industrial Revolution, but also I think just a very different cultural reverence for, you know, food businesses.

[00:15:34] It's seen as a commodity.

[00:15:36] I always said in restaurants, like you're treated like Conet.

[00:15:40] I mean, you're treated like a public utility, but you're not paid for it.

[00:15:42] So it's, you know, sometimes a little tough.

[00:15:45] So I would say it was probably around that time that Third Plate was published.

[00:15:48] And, you know, New York, especially Hudson Valley has such a hotbed of some of these early regen farms.

[00:15:55] And so, you know, embarrassment of riches and kind of that is meant being in that location as a young chef and restaurateur.

[00:16:04] Sorry, that was a very long answer.

[00:16:06] No, no.

[00:16:07] It's really great.

[00:16:07] The answer to probably a simple question.

[00:16:10] No, I'm curious.

[00:16:11] Like, how do you go from regenerative focused restaurant to I want to create a CPG brand?

[00:16:17] And what did that arc look like?

[00:16:18] And what did you learn?

[00:16:19] I mean, obviously, you spend so much time in like the restaurant space.

[00:16:21] And it's really interesting to have somebody who's so restaurant focused.

[00:16:24] And I think a lot of what you said is absolutely true.

[00:16:26] But also hasn't really been shared on this podcast before because we're so CPG focused.

[00:16:32] So, yeah.

[00:16:32] What did that transition look like?

[00:16:34] You know, sorry, guys, but mostly run by men.

[00:16:37] Targeted to women and men who have marketing backgrounds and who have never touched the food supply system.

[00:16:43] So it's always funny when you look.

[00:16:44] I always tell women, follow the money and look at who's in charge.

[00:16:48] CPG is very dominated by men in marketing who have zero food experience whatsoever.

[00:16:54] So it is funny, too, because sometimes people are like, oh, you pivoted and it's so interesting.

[00:16:59] And I'm like, no, I actually know how food is made.

[00:17:02] I mean, I've seen how food is grown and where it goes and how it's made and how it gets to your shelf.

[00:17:07] You know, think about restaurants.

[00:17:09] It's all about distributors.

[00:17:10] I mean, so I guess the short answer and then I'll tell you a funny anecdote on that, which is it was always on the it was always on the business plan.

[00:17:21] You know, the restaurant to me was always kind of our Trojan horse.

[00:17:24] It was really to see if people were ready for this kind of dining to be more climate centered, you know, from food waste to no I mean, we had no disposable, no plastic whatsoever.

[00:17:35] Which at that time, you know, now it's more proliferated.

[00:17:39] No one was doing, you know, silverware in store.

[00:17:43] No one was saying, you know what, our to go boxes are just not going to be plastic.

[00:17:46] We are not doing that.

[00:17:47] We are not going to have a plastic bag.

[00:17:49] No one was talking about that.

[00:17:51] And no one was really discussing menu design for food waste.

[00:17:54] No one had a plant based.

[00:17:55] I mean, I laugh now with EMP and, you know, Daniel Hum getting all the credit for vegetarian, but like we were doing really elevated events.

[00:18:04] Even to this day, we do know, you know, everything is plant based when we cook for even large scale, really high end luxury events.

[00:18:11] No one at that time was doing that.

[00:18:13] So, you know, what started the CPG journey, it was always on the it was always on the business plan because think about it in a four wall business.

[00:18:22] There's only so much impact you can have.

[00:18:24] There's only so many people you can see in a given day.

[00:18:26] So I was already thinking of, OK, if you can create this community that then kind of catapults you into legitimacy, brand recognition and, you know, a base community to go to a grocery store.

[00:18:38] But the first big, OK, I think I'm semi good at this was I get a phone call from the Glossier team.

[00:18:45] Their offices were around the corner.

[00:18:46] We had done a lot with them over the years.

[00:18:48] We're kind of like their cafeteria.

[00:18:50] Some of their early employees were old friends of mine before they had worked at Glossier.

[00:18:55] And they were just big supporters.

[00:18:56] Like, you know, my first article was, you know, one of my first articles on me was Into the Gloss.

[00:19:02] And, you know, I kind of laughed.

[00:19:03] I was like, no one's going to read this.

[00:19:04] I don't know who I am.

[00:19:05] And also, like, I don't really make up or beauty products.

[00:19:08] It's like I'm a chef.

[00:19:09] I'm sweating 24-7.

[00:19:10] I don't know.

[00:19:11] I want to know, like, my skincare routine.

[00:19:14] But they had called and they said, you know, we're releasing BerryBomb.com.

[00:19:18] You know, at that time, their bomb flavor releases were, like, kind of a big deal.

[00:19:23] And they only did one to two a year.

[00:19:24] And they said the team wants you to be sort of the partner with it.

[00:19:29] It was between you and Ina Garden.

[00:19:31] And I, like, almost cried.

[00:19:32] I was like, you should have chosen Ina.

[00:19:33] I want to meet her.

[00:19:35] And they said, we have four weeks to ship 300 products around the country.

[00:19:40] And we're going to have another 300.

[00:19:42] 100 in your store, 200 at our store for this launch.

[00:19:45] And I was like, we can do that.

[00:19:46] No problem.

[00:19:47] So, of course, I go back to the team.

[00:19:49] And they're like, what did you agree to?

[00:19:50] Like, what are you talking about?

[00:19:51] We have no idea how we're going to do this.

[00:19:53] So we ended up doing, we had a blueberry compote on our menu from the start.

[00:19:58] And obviously, again, in the book, I talk a lot about preserves and stews and

[00:20:02] ways to extend produce.

[00:20:05] So we ended up jarring BerryBomb.com fully custom for them.

[00:20:11] And that's when I was like, okay, if I can do that in four weeks and, you know,

[00:20:15] impress a company that's, you know, far more advanced than I am, I think we can do this.

[00:20:20] So honestly, there was a gap because of COVID.

[00:20:24] You know, the world kind of flipped upside down in 2020.

[00:20:27] But 2020 was supposed to be our launch year.

[00:20:29] And then it ended up being 2022.

[00:20:31] But through that period, we sold a lot of products to the restaurant.

[00:20:34] We had our snacks.

[00:20:36] Like I said, we did the compote on a limited run.

[00:20:39] We would always like for certain seasons do, you know, little giftables.

[00:20:45] I mean, things like we designed a lot of our plateware with my cousin, who's a ceramicist.

[00:20:50] Like we could not keep $50 mugs on the shelves.

[00:20:53] It was unbelievable.

[00:20:54] It was like, who's buying this?

[00:20:55] You know, sometimes you make stuff kind of for yourself.

[00:20:57] And you're like, who is buying this?

[00:21:00] So, you know, I think the restaurant is where a lot of that was seeded.

[00:21:03] But it was always the plan, you know, to get into every home across the country, not just, you know, our 700 square foot store in Soho.

[00:21:12] So I hate, I won't let anyone say it's a pivot because it's not a pivot.

[00:21:15] And it was always on the business plan.

[00:21:17] And we were already doing it.

[00:21:18] We were already doing it out of the restaurant.

[00:21:21] It's food, right?

[00:21:22] And I think part of the problem is actually my guess is it's being called a pivot because we have to always create these such huge separations between retail and food service.

[00:21:32] And like really thriving food cultures, that doesn't exist.

[00:21:35] That exists in America because we've industrialized everything so much.

[00:21:38] But it's food.

[00:21:41] Well, also, like I said, there is, I think, this very big mental separation.

[00:21:46] You know, what you said, Kyle, I think is, you know, fortunately or unfortunately true.

[00:21:52] A lot of how we look at food businesses, like I said, chefs are seen in this like very different category.

[00:21:58] You have this select few that are celebrities.

[00:22:01] Everyone else, people just kind of write off, right?

[00:22:03] Their back of house, you don't see them.

[00:22:05] A lot of people don't really regard them.

[00:22:07] A lot of people don't really respect like the amount of work and talent and skill that goes into what you experience at a restaurant.

[00:22:15] But then CBG founders are like gods.

[00:22:19] They're on every magazine.

[00:22:21] You know, they're everywhere.

[00:22:21] Like I laughed.

[00:22:22] I still want someone to write this article.

[00:22:25] Like I will never forget.

[00:22:27] It was, I think, a year into starting Westbourne and every front cover, you know, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, every morning show.

[00:22:36] Starbucks has announced that in 2025 they're going to get rid of straws.

[00:22:41] I'm like, who the F is going to remember in 2025 whether they got rid of straws?

[00:22:46] Like I want to see the follow-up article.

[00:22:48] That's like we let them have every airwave for a month on this initiative.

[00:22:54] Like we're never going to know whether they did it or not.

[00:22:56] So it's so interesting how there's this, you know, and you look at these sales of big CPG companies and they get on, you know, all these big podcasts and they're heralded as these heroes of the food supply chain.

[00:23:10] Not many chefs get that same attention.

[00:23:13] So I do think also the division is based a lot on sort of how we look right.

[00:23:18] A business leader is regarded very differently as a chef or restaurateur, which is crazy because they're equally mission critical businesses.

[00:23:27] They are places and businesses that we all frequent that are core to our daily lives.

[00:23:32] But, you know, we saw it no bigger than COVID.

[00:23:35] I mean, I'll never forget that Sunday when everyone had the stay-at-home order in New York.

[00:23:39] I called Wes Moore, who's now governor of Maryland, who was the head of Robin Hood.

[00:23:44] And I said, you know what the problem is?

[00:23:46] The second largest employer in this country is restaurants.

[00:23:48] And no one has considered that that industry can't work from home.

[00:23:51] And no one is thinking about any single one of them.

[00:23:54] And I promise you tomorrow, unemployment website will be crashed.

[00:23:57] And he was like, what do you mean?

[00:23:59] I'm like, think about it.

[00:24:00] Everyone's like, great, we're working from home.

[00:24:02] All these people can't work from home and no one even thinks about them.

[00:24:06] So I agree with you.

[00:24:07] I do think there's a big separation.

[00:24:08] And I feel it's very sad because they're equally as critical.

[00:24:12] You just don't.

[00:24:13] Like I said, chefs think they're not good at math.

[00:24:16] They don't think they're good at science.

[00:24:17] And that's what they do all day.

[00:24:19] There is this American cultural bias.

[00:24:22] And, you know, unfortunately, I think sort of lack of respect for the food industry and their participation in this.

[00:24:30] And then, you know, they love to have chefs sort of sign off on their products.

[00:24:34] But they're seen as sort of a very different category.

[00:24:38] It is interesting.

[00:24:39] And I have not yet spent time in Europe planning to go next year for the first time.

[00:24:42] But I think what you and AC are describing is like the industrial United States version of food and the European model are extremely different.

[00:24:51] And I think a lot of that's just due to the regionality of Europe, whereas the United States, everything needs to be uniform across such a widespread geography.

[00:24:58] You know, that changes the way business is done.

[00:25:00] But that is all because of the Industrial Revolution.

[00:25:04] No doubt.

[00:25:05] I mean, a lot of that uniformity is because post-war there was a reason for it.

[00:25:12] And then when certain people started getting their pockets lined, they held on for dear life and they spent a shit ton messaging that that's important, even though it's not.

[00:25:23] I mean, I say to people, too, you know, and again, it's something I talk about in the book.

[00:25:28] Elon Musk, one, he convinced everyone that your car is the biggest driver of carbon emissions.

[00:25:34] It is a joke compared to the food system.

[00:25:38] Almost a blip.

[00:25:39] But every person in America thinks that their car choice is the most important thing they can do for the environment.

[00:25:45] LOL.

[00:25:46] I mean, it's not at all.

[00:25:47] So it's, you know, again, you follow the money and you follow who's in charge.

[00:25:52] That's exactly why we still have it that way.

[00:25:55] And Europe just has a very different financial system.

[00:25:58] They have a very different incentive system.

[00:26:01] Private and public markets interact in very different ways.

[00:26:03] But here, I think it's because you had a couple people get really rich post-war and they've held on tight.

[00:26:11] They've done a really good marketing job.

[00:26:14] But, for example, I hear all the time about premium pricing rate for regenerative agriculture.

[00:26:19] Or, yeah, but anything that's not plastic is more expensive.

[00:26:22] I just did a podcast with Roddy DiVlukia and a lot of people have picked it up.

[00:26:28] Plastic is cheap because we subsidize it.

[00:26:30] It's not inherently cheap.

[00:26:32] I think people forget corn is cheap because we subsidize it.

[00:26:35] Sugar is cheap because we subsidize it.

[00:26:38] Honey is not more expensive.

[00:26:39] We just haven't sat down and redrawn the map.

[00:26:42] We're very good at redrawing voting districts.

[00:26:45] But we have spent zero time redrawing the tariff map, the subsidy map for food.

[00:26:52] We just haven't come from literally 70 years ago and no one has said maybe we should relook at what we pay for.

[00:26:58] I mean, plastic is not cheap.

[00:27:01] You pay for it to be cheap.

[00:27:03] If we decided tomorrow that regenerative agriculture should get the subsidies that corn and sugar have, we would have a completely different grocery aisle and completely different system tomorrow.

[00:27:15] Totally agree.

[00:27:16] And in particular, you know, not only are all these industries being subsidized, they're also causing chronic disease, which we're then paying a second time as taxpayers to treat the medical byproduct of that subsidization.

[00:27:27] Right. So to your point, if we subsidize real food, healthy food, nutrient dense food that has a beneficial human component and climate component, like the entire society changes.

[00:27:38] So I would say two things on that.

[00:27:40] And I was asked to actually be an early partner in the restaurant as well with Impossible Foods.

[00:27:46] And I said, look, you're going to make a billion, bajillion dollars.

[00:27:49] I get it. You want to offer me equity.

[00:27:51] But I don't believe in any of this because the truth is any solution that says it's for climate that isn't good for your health won't be good for climate.

[00:27:59] And that has been proven time and time again.

[00:28:01] None of these companies did anything for carbon.

[00:28:03] None of these companies did anything for food cost and access.

[00:28:06] None of these companies did anything for the environment.

[00:28:08] And to your earlier point, you know, you asked why food.

[00:28:11] My dad spent his entire career pretty much in the life sciences.

[00:28:15] And when you hear major researchers, people are at the cutting edge of health, whether it's diagnostics, therapeutics, you know, breakthrough research.

[00:28:24] Every single person will tell you within five seconds first.

[00:28:27] By the time it gets to me, we're already in a problem.

[00:28:30] People need to be focusing on food.

[00:28:32] Every person in the health sciences will tell you food is where we need to begin.

[00:28:36] And we still haven't picked up the script.

[00:28:39] So that is also one of the reasons that I got into food because I saw firsthand as a kid, you know, I was fortunate.

[00:28:45] My dad would take us to symposiums, you know, on neurology, on oncology.

[00:28:50] Every single therapeutic will tell you it starts with food and what you eat.

[00:28:54] And we have to get there.

[00:28:56] We have to break this subsidy system to better support the things that, to your point, are also good for, like, it's better for the economy.

[00:29:05] It's better for people's wallets.

[00:29:07] It's better for their homes and not only their health and the planet.

[00:29:10] So when I hear, I get a lot of people who say, yeah, but your stuff's expensive.

[00:29:13] I go, eventually it won't be, but the truth is, you know, I remember speaking to a couple investors when we first started.

[00:29:20] A couple who backed, you know, meaty and impossible, you know, and they're hammering me on unit economics.

[00:29:26] And I said, oh, really?

[00:29:27] Like, so what's meaty's margins?

[00:29:29] Like, how do they make money?

[00:29:30] And what does it cost to make something in a lab?

[00:29:33] Again, you have to remember, my dad's in the life sciences.

[00:29:35] Anything lab created is going to be multiples more expensive than what's grown on our land.

[00:29:40] But that's not what we're told, right?

[00:29:43] The zeitgeist is, oh, that's going to be cheaper.

[00:29:45] We're going to feed the world out of a lab.

[00:29:47] Talk to any person who's worked in the life sciences.

[00:29:51] It's expensive.

[00:29:52] It's extraordinarily expensive.

[00:29:55] And that's also what we've learned time and time again.

[00:29:57] And we put billions into solutions where they say they're going to feed the world on cheap food,

[00:30:02] which makes no sense and has never worked.

[00:30:05] It's like unbelievable seeing this, like, cycle, right?

[00:30:08] Right. Venture capital goes into something because it's patentable.

[00:30:12] They spread, you know, and every media picks it up and talks about how incredible these companies are

[00:30:18] and they're saving the world and it never ends up delivering.

[00:30:22] Yeah.

[00:30:23] I think this group is-

[00:30:25] You could go off.

[00:30:25] I could go off for a long time.

[00:30:28] No, I mean, and so could we.

[00:30:29] I think we're all aligned on that.

[00:30:30] Um, and it's, it can be discouraging sometimes to try to come back into the micro and say,

[00:30:37] okay, what the hell can we do about that today?

[00:30:40] About that giant behemoth issue.

[00:30:43] So where my mind's going is like, when you try to think of the first product, right?

[00:30:48] And as you've gone through the product innovation and what you guys have actually launched,

[00:30:51] like, how have you thought about that?

[00:30:52] And what has the agriculture story been?

[00:30:54] What's the sourcing story been?

[00:30:55] Like, take us through some of the products you developed and launched and the story behind them.

[00:31:00] Yeah.

[00:31:01] You know, it's interesting.

[00:31:01] We launched in a very different way and, you know, a lot of investors don't and didn't

[00:31:06] like this, which was, you know, I really wanted to launch as a portfolio brand because I wanted

[00:31:13] the brand to resonate as something bigger than just one product.

[00:31:17] I want us to have license to touch anything much like Patagonia.

[00:31:21] I mean, I, they're totally a company that I think of as, you know, a North star, whatever

[00:31:26] you get from Patagonia, whether it's a hat, whether it's, you know, a carabiner, whether

[00:31:31] it's a t-shirt, you know, that there's a sensibility that goes into it, a commitment to quality and

[00:31:37] a sourcing, you know, ethos and sense of ethics.

[00:31:40] That's what we wanted to establish out of the gate.

[00:31:43] So we actually launched with probably 15 products across multiple categories, you know, unpopular

[00:31:51] opinion.

[00:31:51] But I wanted to do it because I wanted to use our DTC channel to test, to see what people

[00:31:56] are responding to, to see what we were interested in making.

[00:32:00] And then also starting some of those grocery conversations to see, you know, what's high

[00:32:05] growth, where's their opportunity, where can we really stand out?

[00:32:08] So we had three types of baking mixes.

[00:32:12] We had preserves, which we still release, you know, quarterly.

[00:32:15] We have one this season for holiday.

[00:32:19] We had snacks, which we're going to be bringing back in a new way in 2025 and our avocado oil.

[00:32:26] So, you know, again, unpopular opinion, but I sort of said, look, I think our secret sauce

[00:32:31] is product development.

[00:32:33] A lot of that is also because I'm a food person.

[00:32:35] So we can do it in house.

[00:32:37] We don't have to go to a co-man and say, I'm looking to whip something up.

[00:32:41] Like we go to them and we say, this is the formulation.

[00:32:43] This is the sourcing.

[00:32:44] This is the packaging.

[00:32:45] We just really want you to put it together.

[00:32:47] But like, we don't really want you to touch any piece of the supply chain, which is

[00:32:51] totally unusual.

[00:32:52] Yeah.

[00:32:52] Um, so as we've gone along, you know, I think a lot of it is seeing new things that I find

[00:33:01] interesting or driven by a partner like last year for holidays.

[00:33:06] So we used to do again, coming out of the blueberry compote is sort of where the butter idea came

[00:33:11] from.

[00:33:12] I grew up for holidays.

[00:33:13] William Sonoma used to do like pumpkin and apple butter.

[00:33:16] And I loved them.

[00:33:17] And they used to only do it for holiday.

[00:33:19] And it's funny because so many people are like, what's a butter?

[00:33:21] I said, it's really jam and preserves without all the crazy sugar.

[00:33:24] There's no refined sugar and no preservatives, no added additives, no pectin, no gelatin.

[00:33:29] Like frankly, what a preserve really should be.

[00:33:32] But to your point of industrialization, right?

[00:33:34] It's not meant to sit on the shelf for five years, uh, the way that we're used to.

[00:33:39] So for that one, we had been one of the first people to test Oishi Berry, their office, their

[00:33:46] like pickup when they first launched, like soft launch was right by our restaurant.

[00:33:50] So every time they had like a drop, we would send someone and the whole team would taste

[00:33:54] in.

[00:33:55] We'd talk about vertical farming.

[00:33:57] I was an early investor in a vertical farm company in New York way back in the day.

[00:34:01] You know, we talk about it as a team in the restaurant.

[00:34:04] Like, where is this going?

[00:34:05] What's it doing for the environment?

[00:34:07] Why are we moving into this?

[00:34:08] How do we think about this versus regenerative agriculture?

[00:34:11] So I DM'd Oishi Berry one day and I said to them like, what happens to the ugly berries?

[00:34:16] Because I think people also think indoor farming means all of them are perfect, which we know

[00:34:20] is not true.

[00:34:22] Like it's just about really energy conservation and, you know, environmental control.

[00:34:27] But a plant is still a plant.

[00:34:28] Not every strawberry is this like pristine thing.

[00:34:31] So it's like, what happens to the ugly berries?

[00:34:33] And they said, you know, no one's ever asked us that before.

[00:34:35] We actually freeze them.

[00:34:36] And we're not really sure what to do with it.

[00:34:38] And I said, well, could I have them and make something out of it?

[00:34:41] Because the first step in a preserve is freezing them.

[00:34:44] It helps break down the fruit and save you a lot of time and energy on making the butter.

[00:34:49] So that's really how that one came out.

[00:34:51] And we sold out in two days.

[00:34:53] We did another drop in, you know, we ended up bringing it back for Valentine's Day

[00:34:58] because they were like, wait, wait, we were planning on like a holiday campaign.

[00:35:02] We had to call all these media that were, you know, going to post about it.

[00:35:05] And we were like, we don't have anything left.

[00:35:07] So please don't put us in your trip guide.

[00:35:10] So I don't know.

[00:35:11] A lot of our, you know, we have a marble tray now.

[00:35:16] Again, kind of similar.

[00:35:17] I mean, I love, I think our generation, I love how we curate the stovetop.

[00:35:22] You know, again, think about our parents.

[00:35:24] Like they had Wesson vegetable oil in plastic containers,

[00:35:28] like somewhere hidden in the pantry that was probably expired, right?

[00:35:31] Now it's like you go to someone's home and like the salt they use,

[00:35:35] the vinegar they have out, the oil selection, you know, that says something about them.

[00:35:40] And it is this like really, I mean, even that, you know,

[00:35:43] even single guys who go into their kitchens and it's like a moment.

[00:35:47] And so I sort of thought, and again, I think that's where, you know,

[00:35:51] some of the passion behind the avocado oil came from was,

[00:35:53] this is like someone's personal moment.

[00:35:55] They're telling you who they are.

[00:35:57] They're telling you their values.

[00:35:58] And it's one of the few things in pantry that's not hidden, right?

[00:36:02] So you go to someone's house, you know,

[00:36:04] you're on the podcast with Kettle and Fire behind you.

[00:36:06] You're telling someone something.

[00:36:08] In most homes, that's kind of the one moment that's out proudly.

[00:36:13] So that's where the tray came from.

[00:36:15] You know, we did a limited edition with Montana LaBelle

[00:36:18] and sort of talked through, like,

[00:36:21] can you have this piece that gives prominence?

[00:36:24] And again, that sort of sense of pride for the avocado oil duo.

[00:36:29] It can be used also on your tabletop.

[00:36:31] You know, you can have bread on one side and the dip on the other.

[00:36:34] You can use it for your jewelry if you really want to.

[00:36:37] You know, you can use your bedside for water.

[00:36:40] But just this moment for the stovetop, you know,

[00:36:45] and making that something special, I think was really important.

[00:36:47] So I don't know.

[00:36:49] That's how I think about product development.

[00:36:50] And I'm always, I mean,

[00:36:52] there's so many things left that we want to do.

[00:36:54] So we're only in early innings.

[00:36:58] I love the way you described the moment in the kitchen.

[00:37:01] That is like totally like we, my house,

[00:37:03] we're guilty that my wife and I and all of our friends' houses,

[00:37:06] we're very much into like the local food scene in Central Oregon,

[00:37:09] sourcing local.

[00:37:10] Like, oh, like,

[00:37:11] did you buy your bed from Milfire Baker this week?

[00:37:14] You know, is that loaf prominently displayed, right?

[00:37:16] We're not like ticking the boxes and like marking criteria,

[00:37:19] but it's so interesting to talk about.

[00:37:20] And it's something that we care so much about.

[00:37:22] Um, so I think it's really cool that you're focusing on that specific kind of niche area

[00:37:27] where you can make that statement.

[00:37:29] Um, but I'm going to do the opposite of what AC just did.

[00:37:32] And AC really kind of zoomed in about the product specifically.

[00:37:34] I want to zoom back out and talk about the cultural zeitgeist you've mentioned a few times.

[00:37:39] And I'm really curious to get your take on like,

[00:37:41] what will it take to make regenerative cool?

[00:37:44] And how can regenerative build the right Trojan horse to penetrate the cultures,

[00:37:49] I guess,

[00:37:49] and make waves and get more consumer adoption and consumer awareness around this type of food?

[00:37:54] I think it's a couple things.

[00:37:55] I mean, one, it's one of the reasons I wrote the cookbook.

[00:37:59] I think the cookbooks do a lot to make things more popular, right?

[00:38:03] It's very approachable.

[00:38:04] You get people, you know, they're reading like 10 pages, not a full novel.

[00:38:08] So it's like with pretty pictures and, you know, other things.

[00:38:12] So to me, right, even in each of the recipe intros,

[00:38:16] they're learning something about carbon.

[00:38:17] They don't know it.

[00:38:18] And, you know, I don't say it,

[00:38:20] but they're actually learning about the carbon life cycle.

[00:38:22] They're learning something about regenerative farming

[00:38:24] that they might not even know just by reading a recipe and making something.

[00:38:28] So again, that Trojan horse of let me give you, right,

[00:38:32] everyone loves cookbooks.

[00:38:34] Everyone collects them, you know, especially our generation.

[00:38:36] There's this, it's sort of the last also like analog piece, right?

[00:38:40] Everyone reads on their Kindles, but people don't cook from their Kindle.

[00:38:43] They buy a cookbook, right?

[00:38:45] Like I think there's a lot of digitization of books,

[00:38:48] but cookbooks, I think will always be this like physical piece.

[00:38:52] So I think the cookbook's a big piece of it.

[00:38:55] Look, I think media, like a lot of what I say, you know,

[00:38:58] you read Business of Fashion and you look at how retail and beauty are reported on, right?

[00:39:04] Like I love Save Beauty.

[00:39:06] I think what they've been doing in making, you know,

[00:39:09] carbon consciousness incredible in like, you're right, your blush, your lip gloss,

[00:39:14] like they've made that tide.

[00:39:16] But a lot of that too is that media is reporting on it.

[00:39:19] When you talk to food media, I mean,

[00:39:21] I can't even tell you how hard it is for me to get people

[00:39:23] to want to write about regenerative.

[00:39:25] They're so happy to write about, you know, XYZ company that's innovation is in their plastic

[00:39:31] packaging.

[00:39:32] It boggles my mind, you know, and they'll write articles and articles, right?

[00:39:36] On cellular meat.

[00:39:37] And you're like, this isn't an innovation.

[00:39:38] We've learned it doesn't work, but they're dominating headlines, right?

[00:39:42] Like no straws in 2025 is a joke.

[00:39:45] We need to be pressuring media and getting them around this.

[00:39:50] Like I said, I mean, you go to Business of Fashion,

[00:39:52] there's an article on alternative textiles and regenerative sourcing for cotton and other

[00:39:58] fabrics probably once a week.

[00:40:01] Even Eater, Food & Wine, Bon Appetit, they don't write on this almost at all versus a lot

[00:40:07] of these other publications and other industries that are giving award, right?

[00:40:12] Like Say has won a ton of awards for the way that they've redone their supply chain to be

[00:40:17] sustainability minded.

[00:40:19] No CPG companies are getting any attention for that.

[00:40:22] Wayne, I want to play devil's advocate here.

[00:40:24] And I'm curious about like what you think the why is, because is it that in my mind, all these

[00:40:30] different media outlets write about what people want to read, right?

[00:40:33] Because that's how they make their revenue.

[00:40:34] So is it possible that the consumer is not yet ready to, even the consumer of media isn't

[00:40:40] interested enough in regenerative?

[00:40:42] And if that is the case, how do we bridge that gap or how do we make it more simple for these

[00:40:47] news media people?

[00:40:48] I think it's more about the how, not the what.

[00:40:50] And I would say that because, right, why would Business of Fashion write an article every week

[00:40:55] on regenerative cotton?

[00:40:56] I mean, you know, I find it hard to believe that it's not consumer demand, but I do think

[00:41:03] it's the what and, or sorry, the why and sort of how it's written about that needs to be

[00:41:09] catchy, right?

[00:41:10] Like everyone's clicking on click baby articles, that type of style can all, I think there's

[00:41:16] this sense of like, oh, if I write about regenerative food, it has to be like really serious, right?

[00:41:21] You know, it has to be encyclopedic versus talking about, you know, Stella McCartney's

[00:41:27] new bag and the new leather, you know, then obviously non-hide leather that they're working

[00:41:32] on.

[00:41:33] Or you look at Pangaea and what they've been able to do with, you know, their textiles.

[00:41:38] I don't, I mean, I hear you, but I think when you look at all these other publications

[00:41:42] for other industries, I don't know.

[00:41:45] It's hard to say, you know, what we as food media and in the food press reward, give attention

[00:41:51] to is also a choice.

[00:41:53] So I hear you.

[00:41:54] And I get that from a lot of writers.

[00:41:55] They say, oh, well, you know, the editors doesn't want to do it because it doesn't convert

[00:41:59] as much.

[00:42:00] And I said, well, maybe it's about how the article is written.

[00:42:02] And also look at the awards landscape.

[00:42:04] I mean, I'd also say that great.

[00:42:06] You maybe don't want to write an article because it's not clickbait enough, but look at what

[00:42:10] the awards are going to versus you look at all the beauty awards and what they're rewarding

[00:42:15] is really people who are moving away from first gen plastic, who are thinking about how they're

[00:42:20] growing, you know, ingredients that are going into these products.

[00:42:23] But our CPG awards, all big, you know, nominations, they're not including anything that's regenerative

[00:42:30] for the most part.

[00:42:31] So I think it's both personally.

[00:42:33] And then I'd say third is like, I, you know, for better or worse, I think a lot of it too

[00:42:39] is driven by, you know, celebrity and who's talking about what, right?

[00:42:45] Like the right person, you know, Billie Eilish has done a lot for sustainability.

[00:42:50] I mean, she has a full sustainability writer when she does anything, even a photo shoot,

[00:42:54] they have to compost.

[00:42:56] They can't use plastic.

[00:42:57] You know, Coldplay did a plastic free tour recently and required that all water bottles

[00:43:02] be shifted to aluminum.

[00:43:04] I mean, that's huge, right?

[00:43:06] Think about that.

[00:43:07] If someone said, hey, right, Beyonce's next tour, she's like, I want it to be plant-based

[00:43:12] and we're going to work with regenerative farms.

[00:43:14] You would see a big, I think, shift in how people think about it.

[00:43:19] But I don't know.

[00:43:20] That's just my two cents.

[00:43:22] Yeah.

[00:43:22] I mean, when you peel back the layers of culture, there's so many different things you can talk

[00:43:27] about.

[00:43:27] So it's hard to pinpoint it down, right?

[00:43:30] I think you did a really good job covering it.

[00:43:32] I struggle with one piece of comparing food and beauty and fashion to food.

[00:43:38] And I think the primary purchasing drivers are different.

[00:43:41] I think in beauty and fashion, it's a lot of social status driven.

[00:43:44] And with food, there's certainly an element of that, especially in premium, kind of better

[00:43:48] for you space, but ultimately, like vast majority of consumers are still making those decisions

[00:43:53] based off price, taste and convenience versus buying a handbag, right?

[00:43:58] That's like totally different.

[00:44:00] So.

[00:44:00] But I would say the taste and convenience is, again, convenience is a choice of grocery

[00:44:06] stores putting it in or not.

[00:44:08] So that's solvable.

[00:44:09] Taste, regenerative food does taste better.

[00:44:12] I mean, it's not only better for you and higher nutritional value, but it does on a blind

[00:44:16] taste test taste vastly better.

[00:44:19] I think.

[00:44:20] And again, price is something that's going to have to be sort of a public private partnership

[00:44:24] at some point.

[00:44:25] Right.

[00:44:26] The more, you know, I say to even grocery stores when we talk to buyers, I'm like, look,

[00:44:29] right now we're not in 5,000 stores.

[00:44:32] We're working on it.

[00:44:34] But the more stores we get into, the more that we can pass savings on to consumers.

[00:44:37] Like it's a little chicken and egg, this conversation around price.

[00:44:41] And again, I think for me personally, I also believe a lot of this narrative around price

[00:44:48] and premium and out of reach and not accessible is what big food is putting a lot of dollars

[00:44:53] behind.

[00:44:55] I also think there's something to be said that like your background as a chef makes me

[00:44:59] think about, which is I come from a large fresh produce distribution family business.

[00:45:03] And it's like, beets are good.

[00:45:05] Broccoli is good.

[00:45:06] Most of y'all just don't know how to cook it.

[00:45:07] And so if you have somebody that I can actually prepare it well, which that's more of a fresh

[00:45:11] food thing than a CPG thing, but in CPG, it still is formulation.

[00:45:15] It's process.

[00:45:16] It's product design.

[00:45:17] There is basically getting it to the right form and function that makes it tasty, nutritious,

[00:45:22] et cetera.

[00:45:24] Yeah, totally.

[00:45:25] And look, I think what you said is so interesting.

[00:45:28] I forgot earlier, you know, an anecdote I always like to share is when I started the restaurant,

[00:45:33] my very first meeting when I was conceiving this, I got to TJ Murphy who runs Baldor on

[00:45:39] the East Coast and they're one of the largest food distributors.

[00:45:42] And I sat down with him.

[00:45:44] He happened to live in the neighborhood.

[00:45:45] And I said, look, I'm 700 square feet.

[00:45:48] Most distributors would give an F about us, but here's what I'm doing.

[00:45:51] Here's what I'm thinking about.

[00:45:53] This is the impact we want to make.

[00:45:54] And we also want to bring brands that are doing things mindfully to New York that aren't

[00:45:59] here.

[00:45:59] Like, do you want to be a partner?

[00:46:01] Because I really need someone who's like, we're not going to be able to do it unless

[00:46:05] we punch above our weight class.

[00:46:06] Right.

[00:46:07] And the only way to do that is with a partnership like yours.

[00:46:09] They were all in.

[00:46:10] They had actually converted their facility to be completely carbon neutral and waste free

[00:46:16] four years before that.

[00:46:18] They underwent this massive process.

[00:46:21] You know, and he was sort of like, look, if we can do it, anyone can.

[00:46:24] Right.

[00:46:24] Everyone talks about like, does it make economic sense?

[00:46:27] And we can't change how we're doing things.

[00:46:29] And he was like, we just sat down and said, the future of this company is being, you know,

[00:46:35] environmentally sound and we are going to figure out how to do it.

[00:46:37] And so again, having seen also that distribution is so key to that.

[00:46:42] So like we would want, you know, we talked a lot about like juice, for example, juice in

[00:46:48] restaurants.

[00:46:48] If you're getting the produce from California, you're shipping it to New York, you're processing

[00:46:53] in New York, and then you're shipping it all over the country.

[00:46:55] It's just so many extra steps.

[00:46:57] Things like juice really need to come from where produce is grown.

[00:47:00] So again, working through that with them, like, hey, you're buying this company, but

[00:47:04] really you should be buying this one.

[00:47:06] And, you know, we would talk through and I would blind taste test their buying team all

[00:47:11] the time.

[00:47:11] And I would say, if you don't pick the product that I'm telling you, you should carry great

[00:47:15] and I'll buy whatever you want.

[00:47:17] But if you can't pick it in a blind taste test, no way you have to swap.

[00:47:20] So it really was, I mean, TJ was one of the first big people, you know, I think to take

[00:47:25] a big bet on us and, you know, to go through my crazy games of food.

[00:47:34] Thanks, TJ.

[00:47:35] Yeah, Valder's awesome.

[00:47:37] They do great work.

[00:47:38] But they show that big food can be different, right?

[00:47:41] I mean, I think there's also this sense of to do things, quote unquote, right, you have

[00:47:46] to be niche.

[00:47:47] And I don't agree with that at all.

[00:47:49] I mean, I do, you know, again, investors ask me all the time, but like, how big is this?

[00:47:53] I'm like, how many times a day do you eat?

[00:47:54] What do you mean?

[00:47:55] It's huge.

[00:47:56] How is it any different than burger patties?

[00:47:58] Like, you think burger patties is a bigger business than a multi-skew food company?

[00:48:03] Like, I don't understand.

[00:48:05] Like, how did we get here?

[00:48:07] You know, everyone thinks burger meat's going to, you know, save the world.

[00:48:10] It's like beyond me.

[00:48:11] Again, as someone who's also in restaurants, I'm like, I don't know.

[00:48:14] That just cannot be the staple product.

[00:48:16] I can't live my life thinking that that is really the staple product.

[00:48:21] I'm gonna probably get murdered by these companies.

[00:48:23] Sorry.

[00:48:24] No.

[00:48:25] Well, hopefully not.

[00:48:25] It's funny, right?

[00:48:26] When you talk to those investors, like I said, you know, you talk to these investors and

[00:48:30] they like look at, you know, and they'll say, but what's the scale?

[00:48:34] What's the unit economics?

[00:48:35] And I'm like, I'm confused.

[00:48:36] Like these companies that you just gave $100 million on a business plan, like you gave

[00:48:41] them $100 million check on a deck.

[00:48:43] We are actually making products.

[00:48:45] My margins are actual.

[00:48:47] I am telling you the actual market size.

[00:48:49] I mean, even avocado oil, I keep hearing from investors, oh, it's niche.

[00:48:54] I go, well, first of all, it's not even our only product.

[00:48:56] But even that alone, the global cooking market, cooking oil market is massive.

[00:49:00] And most are no longer able to be bought, right?

[00:49:05] Like think about that.

[00:49:06] That whole market is still seed oils, canola oil, vegetable oil, things that our generation

[00:49:11] is never going to touch, right?

[00:49:13] Like my mom might have Wesson in her pantry, but you and I are never going to buy that.

[00:49:17] That is a huge white space.

[00:49:19] They go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:49:20] But what's the avocado oil market?

[00:49:22] I'm like, but you're not understanding.

[00:49:23] The global market now has this huge space to fill that there's only certain players that

[00:49:29] are going to be able to do it.

[00:49:30] And somehow like that's not as big as burger meat.

[00:49:33] Like I don't get it.

[00:49:36] It's tough.

[00:49:37] It's hard to say, you know, on one hand, I can sort of understand just having worked with

[00:49:41] so many different grocery buyers and understanding like what's the size of the TAM now versus the

[00:49:45] size of the TAM in 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

[00:49:48] And what they are often measured against is performance now and performance next year.

[00:49:53] So unfortunately, it's those short-term decision-making windows force the perpetuation of the status

[00:50:00] quo, which makes it more difficult to spur change.

[00:50:03] Well, and then the funny thing is, right?

[00:50:05] Again, you look at the dynamics in grocery.

[00:50:07] If you look at every major grocery report, including distributor reports, which obviously

[00:50:13] like I'm a data junkie, I love reading those.

[00:50:15] The top two trends over the last five years has been avocado oil and regenerative foods.

[00:50:21] And some are reporting a little bit on like moving away from plastic in food products.

[00:50:27] But then you talk to the buyer and you're like, wait, wait, I'm confused.

[00:50:30] Like your company just posted multiple pages of research on how big the opportunity is.

[00:50:35] And then you're telling me that like, you're not sure, you know, it's a growing category.

[00:50:40] It's like the right hand's just not talking to the left hand a lot of times.

[00:50:43] So I agree, but I will say, I mean, yes, but I will say I do think, and I hear, I hear

[00:50:50] from Costco buyers.

[00:50:51] I hear from major buyers that they understand that regenerative is where it's going.

[00:50:56] It may not be today, but it certainly is tomorrow.

[00:50:59] And I think they're getting smart to it personally.

[00:51:03] Yeah, I agree.

[00:51:04] It's like the, I think it's known at the top level, but it just hasn't filtered down

[00:51:08] into a, into intelligence that can be activated by those category decision makers that are

[00:51:14] like actually making the day-to-day buying decisions yet.

[00:51:16] And there's lots of fun ways we can talk about potentially changing that slash.

[00:51:20] I think all of us are working on in some capacity.

[00:51:23] Well, for example, what's interesting is actually the cookbook has changed a lot of their minds,

[00:51:27] which is fascinating because they don't buy cookbooks.

[00:51:29] So I'm sort of like, it's funny that this product that will never be on shelves has

[00:51:33] actually come people around from like, okay, if I guess the theory is if a publisher took

[00:51:39] a chance on this, if this is in, you know, stores around the country, then maybe there's

[00:51:44] something to it.

[00:51:46] And you guys just landed fresh market, right?

[00:51:48] With the avocado oil first, first national chain.

[00:51:51] By the way, holiday launched the same week as the cookbook and fresh market, all 163 stars.

[00:51:57] Let's go.

[00:51:57] I would say things happen in the country is good and bad.

[00:52:00] And we were like, whoa, okay.

[00:52:01] October is crazy.

[00:52:03] Um, yeah, it's been exciting.

[00:52:06] I mean, they have been just such an amazing partner.

[00:52:10] I feel like they really believe in food and chefs for sort of all the right reasons.

[00:52:15] Um, and we've been really excited.

[00:52:17] I mean, it's a big, you know, that first, that first big distribution step is massive

[00:52:22] and a beast, you know, to get there, but we're super, super excited.

[00:52:27] And they've been amazing partners to us.

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:29] And can you tell the audience about the holiday bundle y'all are selling?

[00:52:32] And I feel like that's the perfect encapsulation to like understand Westborn and like the

[00:52:36] regen story behind Westborn.

[00:52:37] Thanks.

[00:52:38] Yeah.

[00:52:38] So, you know, again, I think trying a lot of what we do think about is gifting.

[00:52:43] And I think that's, again, how you sort of get in the zeitgeist is like someone who knows,

[00:52:47] I would say like pay it forward, right?

[00:52:49] Like if you, if you buy a regenerative product in your house and then you bring it over as,

[00:52:55] you know, a gift to your friend who's having you for dinner, that's going to then pay that

[00:52:59] knowledge forward.

[00:53:00] So this holiday season, we wanted to start with sort of a regenerative morning.

[00:53:04] So it's, and it's all really in our LA community.

[00:53:07] So I called a bunch of friends who care about what we care about are on the same regenerative

[00:53:12] mission.

[00:53:12] And I said, what if we put together a box so that the whole country could experience what

[00:53:17] we know?

[00:53:17] And everyone can really see how spectacular these products are even more so right than what

[00:53:23] they're used to.

[00:53:23] So Cafe Telegrama run by two Angelinos that are pals, they source with Canyon coffee from

[00:53:30] a regenerative farm.

[00:53:31] So it's regenerative coffee.

[00:53:33] We did a butter with the Ecology Center with their summer strawberries and a little bit

[00:53:38] of chili, little, little spice of heat at the back end.

[00:53:42] And then we brought back.

[00:53:44] So we've always done this pancake and waffle mix since the restaurant days.

[00:53:49] It was an item on our menu.

[00:53:51] I used to laugh.

[00:53:51] People would have it for dinner, waffles and wine.

[00:53:53] And it always made me laugh.

[00:53:56] So it's all, it really is.

[00:53:59] Well, it's all made with cover crops.

[00:54:01] And that one was actually cool.

[00:54:03] We were looking for buckwheat flour.

[00:54:05] We found an incredible regenerative source, but it failed the gluten-free test with our

[00:54:09] facility, which is amazing.

[00:54:11] I was like, what?

[00:54:12] Like buckwheat is gluten-free.

[00:54:15] Like where everyone you're milling in, obviously at cross-contamination.

[00:54:18] So I also love these stories where you're like in the 25th hour, right?

[00:54:21] Nothing ever goes as planned.

[00:54:22] And you always have that last minute, like, oh my God, why is this happening?

[00:54:26] So we're like weeks away from having to package.

[00:54:29] And we don't have a buckwheat source because it failed the gluten-free test, which we just

[00:54:33] never thought, you know, wasn't a contingency plan.

[00:54:36] Like I would never think that.

[00:54:37] So I was randomly on the phone with someone at Matt Agriculture, which is a big organization

[00:54:42] that we love, that we've supported for a long time.

[00:54:44] And I just am obsessed with what they're doing.

[00:54:47] And I said like, what are you, you know, we were just chit-chatting.

[00:54:50] He had no idea what we're doing for holiday.

[00:54:52] And I said like, what are some cool companies you're tracking?

[00:54:54] Like, what are you thinking about?

[00:54:56] What are products that like maybe people aren't using or buy products that we could think

[00:54:59] about product development for?

[00:55:01] He was like, actually like, do you need buckwheat flour?

[00:55:04] And I like dropped the phone.

[00:55:05] And I was like, what did you say?

[00:55:07] And he's like, buckwheat flour?

[00:55:09] And I was like, you are choking me.

[00:55:11] So it turns out this company in Los Angeles, Little Bucks, one of the byproducts of their

[00:55:16] snacks is leftover buckwheat that they've been grinding and they don't do anything with.

[00:55:21] So I was like, great, we'll take 50 pounds, send it our way, swear.

[00:55:25] And that was literally in a matter of like five days from the gluten-free failure test

[00:55:30] to like when we had to get this all mixed.

[00:55:32] So it's the pancake and waffle mix, cover crop mix, and then Westbourne pure avocado oil.

[00:55:40] Yeah.

[00:55:41] I was so fired up when I saw the little, uh, Little Buck shout out on Instagram.

[00:55:45] I'm an investor and they're in our trade association and we know them super well.

[00:55:48] So are you dead?

[00:55:49] Literally goes, do you have anything you need for buckwheat flour?

[00:55:53] And I was like, are you like tapping my phone?

[00:55:56] You know, female nun.

[00:55:59] I love them.

[00:56:00] I love the founder.

[00:56:01] And they were laughing too.

[00:56:03] They're like, you want how much buckwheat flour?

[00:56:05] I was like, can we get it tomorrow?

[00:56:07] Like how it was a Friday afternoon.

[00:56:08] And I was like, I know you're probably trying to check out, but like, we need to pick it up

[00:56:11] next week.

[00:56:12] Um, it was really just so funny and kiss.

[00:56:18] But we love Little Bucks.

[00:56:19] I didn't know you were involved in Little Bucks.

[00:56:21] That's so funny.

[00:56:22] Yeah.

[00:56:22] And our region world is very small.

[00:56:24] It is indeed.

[00:56:25] But growing, but growing.

[00:56:27] But growing.

[00:56:28] Indeed.

[00:56:28] It was so, I mean, I would say for every product we've developed, for every specialty thing

[00:56:35] we've done, there's always that like 25th hour, you know, thing that falls through that

[00:56:41] you're like, why is this so hard?

[00:56:44] There's just always something.

[00:56:46] So I think for us, our biggest thing is just, we have an amazing village of people and we've

[00:56:52] leaned on them so many times and we always figure it out really through.

[00:56:55] We get asked by that a lot with investors.

[00:56:57] They're like, is the supply chain scalable?

[00:56:59] How do you find things?

[00:57:00] What's going on?

[00:57:05] It just works differently.

[00:57:07] It's not, it's not commodity.

[00:57:09] It's not a trade.

[00:57:10] It's not transactional.

[00:57:12] There's something more in it.

[00:57:13] And it does make, you know, the supply chain more defensible in that way.

[00:57:18] Like it's more, it's hard to explain to investors that it's more relational.

[00:57:21] Like it's not just about the highest bidder.

[00:57:25] I have a dumb avocado oil question.

[00:57:28] What's the difference between, what's the difference between a finishing oil and a cooking

[00:57:32] oil?

[00:57:33] All right.

[00:57:33] Well, I will tell you, but also we have a blog.

[00:57:36] It's called field notes on our website.

[00:57:37] We post all about these things because we get a lot of the same questions.

[00:57:42] So the finishing oil, think of for cold.

[00:57:45] So it's anything cold, dressings, dipping, actually it's amazing over ice cream.

[00:57:50] I hosted a 30% dinner last night for a brand and we did chocolate pudding.

[00:57:56] We gave everyone fresh whipped cream and then drizzled the extra virgin over it with a little

[00:58:01] smoked sea salt.

[00:58:02] So anything cold.

[00:58:04] Again, dressings, dipping.

[00:58:07] Honestly, I put it over yogurt and granola in the morning too.

[00:58:10] It's incredible.

[00:58:12] And then the cooking is really like, I always say it's like not your mom's Weston vegetable

[00:58:15] oil.

[00:58:15] And that was a big inspiration.

[00:58:17] Like I grew up, my mom used Weston with everything.

[00:58:19] Like pancakes, baking.

[00:58:22] So that's the other thing that the pure, the cooking oil, that's a hundred.

[00:58:26] I mean, both are pure, but we call it a hundred percent pure.

[00:58:28] And that's actually an interesting lesson.

[00:58:30] It started out as refined.

[00:58:31] And when we first launched the avocado oil, we had a bigger bottle, which intimidated people.

[00:58:37] So we moved to a smaller bottle as like the entry point.

[00:58:40] But I cook, obviously I'm a chef.

[00:58:41] So I was like, I want the biggest bottle ever because I ripped through cooking oil.

[00:58:45] That is not true for American homes.

[00:58:47] They would rather buy 12 smaller bottles than have.

[00:58:51] We learned the hard way.

[00:58:53] We learned the hard way.

[00:58:54] So we moved to a smaller bottle and it was interesting.

[00:58:57] The extra virgin was selling 2X more than the cooking oil, which was interesting because

[00:59:02] it's much more expensive.

[00:59:03] I always call it green gold.

[00:59:04] It is like the most incredible thing you've ever tasted.

[00:59:07] Super premium.

[00:59:08] So I was shocked.

[00:59:10] I was like, wow, it's really outperforming and it's kind of surprising.

[00:59:12] It's like less use cases technically, right?

[00:59:14] You cook things on your stove a little bit more than you're drizzling something, right?

[00:59:19] Um, and so we're sort of like, okay, wonder if it's the name because we called it refined,

[00:59:25] which is what it is.

[00:59:26] And I sort of thought like refined meaning posh, but I think people think of refined,

[00:59:32] like an oil refinery.

[00:59:33] Like I think that word refinery was almost like the opposite of the goal.

[00:59:38] So we shifted it.

[00:59:39] We called it a hundred percent pure one week, complete shift to now our pure is 2X the cooking

[00:59:46] oil compared to the extra virgin in one week.

[00:59:49] That name change and making it smaller was like a game changer.

[00:59:53] So the cooking, I always say sweet, savory.

[00:59:56] It's the all around everything.

[00:59:57] It's super neutral.

[00:59:58] It's a one for one substitute for butter.

[01:00:00] You can completely bake with it.

[01:00:02] It doesn't, unlike other oils, you won't taste it, which I think people are surprised by.

[01:00:06] It doesn't, you know, they're sort of like, they think it's going to be vegetal, but it's

[01:00:10] really not.

[01:00:11] It's super, super smooth saute, bake, grill, fry.

[01:00:15] It has the highest smoke point of anything on the market.

[01:00:18] And again, I think the benefit is that it has this really buttery kind of flavor.

[01:00:24] So it sort of scratches that itch.

[01:00:27] Now you're speaking my language.

[01:00:29] Not your mom's Wesson.

[01:00:30] Not your mom's vegetable oil.

[01:00:31] We're so here for the Wesson oil slander.

[01:00:33] That was right in my pantry too.

[01:00:35] Oh, disgusting.

[01:00:36] By the way, like no knock on them.

[01:00:37] They're amazing.

[01:00:38] Like they built an incredible company, but it is funny.

[01:00:41] Like, you know, I just, I tease my mom all the time about it.

[01:00:44] I'm like, man, like you basically gave us jet fuel.

[01:00:46] Like think about it.

[01:00:47] And we thought we were, you know, we were the house that had like all organic from Mrs.

[01:00:51] Gooch's made in this like jet fuel.

[01:00:54] I mean, it's crazy.

[01:00:55] We used to have healthy vegetable stir fry with vegetables and like chicken strips in

[01:01:00] Wesson oil.

[01:01:01] It's like, yeah.

[01:01:01] But I would say it's no different than all this cellular food.

[01:01:04] Like we're telling ourselves we're helping and we care about the shoes we bought, right?

[01:01:11] People are paying two X for their sneakers and they're eating food that's poisoning them.

[01:01:16] Like I don't understand it.

[01:01:18] It's wild.

[01:01:20] It is a cultural problem.

[01:01:21] And I think it's interesting that you keep bringing up the zeitgeist.

[01:01:24] And it's a question I've been asking myself for years since I started my regenerative journey.

[01:01:28] I think I see the same.

[01:01:28] It's like, how do we get people to understand and care about this stuff?

[01:01:33] And I think it's been a really interesting conversation because to me that really is like the unlock,

[01:01:37] right?

[01:01:37] If we can get people to understand that what they're purchasing actually makes a monumental

[01:01:41] difference in their own health and planetary health.

[01:01:43] Like, well, it's interesting.

[01:01:46] And like, you know, a lot of the reason why avocado oil also is the supply chain.

[01:01:51] Avocado trees are most often co-planted with coffee and chocolate.

[01:01:55] The number one and number two crop in the world, coffee, chocolate, which is why a lot

[01:01:59] of early stage regenerative farms, like, you know, first generation of these, a lot

[01:02:04] were in coffee and chocolate because of that, because they knew that there was a massive market.

[01:02:08] So we were so excited.

[01:02:10] It was a product I'd wanted to do anyway.

[01:02:13] And that really coalesced with regenerative farms at scale have avocados, but it's not

[01:02:20] their primary business.

[01:02:21] They just have them.

[01:02:22] Um, so even thinking about those little pockets.

[01:02:25] So I tell people, right, like start with your coffee.

[01:02:28] It's one of the reasons we did the holiday box.

[01:02:29] Like you can actually buy regenerative coffee tomorrow.

[01:02:32] It's one of the, you know, most proliferated in this industry is coffee today.

[01:02:38] Start with your morning coffee.

[01:02:39] That makes a huge impact.

[01:02:41] Just start there.

[01:02:42] You know, I tell people I love when I speak, I ask the audience, like, raise your hand if

[01:02:47] you make rice once a week, 90% of hands go up.

[01:02:50] Lundberg farms, all their rice is regenerative.

[01:02:53] Like, think about it.

[01:02:54] You could just switch the goddamn bag you buy at the grocery store.

[01:02:58] And you've just had a massive impact on something you make once a week, a staple milk,

[01:03:05] Alexandra, regenerative milk.

[01:03:06] I buy it for my kids.

[01:03:08] Like there, all you have to do is go.

[01:03:12] Like, it's that simple.

[01:03:13] You know, I love it.

[01:03:14] For those listening, she just shifted her hands from buying one thing to buying the other

[01:03:17] thing.

[01:03:17] Yeah.

[01:03:18] Move your hand to the right and pull it out.

[01:03:20] Like, it's actually that simple.

[01:03:22] Like when I give the rice example, I actually just got to meet one of the family members

[01:03:26] and I was like almost full cry.

[01:03:28] I was like, I love what you guys are doing because you're making something that anyone

[01:03:32] can understand and it is just a simple choice at the grocery store.

[01:03:37] Very simple.

[01:03:39] I will have one chef related question I want to ask you to maybe reframe.

[01:03:43] I mean, the next one has to be a cooking or something.

[01:03:45] No, this one's like back to that driving change piece.

[01:03:50] Yeah.

[01:03:50] Like, what tools do we need to provide chefs?

[01:03:53] Because we have some cool, there's some chefs like doing some really cool work with regenerative.

[01:03:57] There's some really cool like regenerative call outs on some menus at some restaurants.

[01:04:00] But like, what else are we as the people trying to boost regenerative, like not giving chefs?

[01:04:06] Like, how can we better support chefs to support us?

[01:04:08] I mean, my goal in 2025 is to get every chef Westborn in their cooking, you know, cooking

[01:04:15] with our oils.

[01:04:17] What are we not giving chefs?

[01:04:21] Uh, I don't, I actually look at it personally the other way.

[01:04:25] I actually think chefs are leading this charge.

[01:04:27] I actually think chefs fully understand what makes a regenerative farm, why it's better.

[01:04:33] I mean, I think chefs fly to quality, right?

[01:04:35] Like they're looking for the best fill in the blank.

[01:04:38] And I think they actually were early in understanding that that's regenerative personally.

[01:04:44] I don't know that we're not giving them what they need.

[01:04:47] Although I will say we get a lot of inquiries.

[01:04:49] We're going to move into food service as well next year.

[01:04:52] We get a lot of inquiries like, you know, I use olive oil, but I'm, it's not for every,

[01:04:57] you know, use case of what we're doing.

[01:04:59] We need an all around.

[01:05:01] We don't like using canola oil anymore.

[01:05:03] You know, guests are starting to ask what it is.

[01:05:06] You know, do you guys have something for restaurants to use it, you know, day in and day out?

[01:05:11] So I do see that being a big opportunity.

[01:05:14] I see a lot of restaurants really trying to make their sort of everyday, right?

[01:05:18] Again, it's a high frequency, high use product.

[01:05:20] They're willing to pay, right?

[01:05:22] They can't break the bank because it's not the same as like what they're paying for their,

[01:05:25] you know, steak on the menu.

[01:05:27] But I think I would also say I encourage restaurants and chefs, one, to really think about food waste

[01:05:36] and menu design and not seeking, you know, I would like to see more, you know, respect

[01:05:42] and admiration for restaurants that don't have like the perfectly shaved carrot that,

[01:05:47] you know, threw out half of it.

[01:05:49] And also continuing to have more attention for plant-based, you know, menus.

[01:05:54] Like I say, I cook for a lot of big brands and do, you know, massive activations at a super high level.

[01:06:01] And I always say to that, like I did one recently for Autumners, the watch company.

[01:06:06] They came to LA to launch the women's watch.

[01:06:08] And like the final tasting, they were like, oh, so you're going to put, you'll maybe put salmon on this, right?

[01:06:14] And I said, no, like we're going to have an entirely plant-based meal.

[01:06:16] And I promise you it'll knock your socks off.

[01:06:18] Like trust me, we need to shift this like posh and fancy has to have, you know, a piece of fish, a steak.

[01:06:27] Like can we make vegetables something that is super special and super interesting?

[01:06:33] Using, you know, all kinds of biodiversity, using fruits and vegetables that people aren't always thinking about that are new.

[01:06:41] And I think continuing to sort of push that and show with our dollars what restaurants we go to.

[01:06:47] You know, I'll tell, I love when like sustainability minded, you know, companies will then host a dinner at a restaurant that like doesn't care about sustainability.

[01:06:56] You're sort of like, you had a choice of where you spent that $75,000.

[01:07:00] Like why not vote that with a restaurant who's actually thinking about it?

[01:07:04] So I think a lot of it too is aligning your values with all of your purchases, not just your sneakers.

[01:07:11] Camilla, this has been super fun.

[01:07:13] Really appreciate it.

[01:07:14] Learned a lot.

[01:07:15] Love your passion and energy that you're bringing.

[01:07:18] We'll ask you our final question that we ask everybody, which I think we've been talking about the whole episode.

[01:07:22] So it'll be interesting to see what we can add to it.

[01:07:24] But how do we get Regen Brands at 50% market share by 2050?

[01:07:30] Oh gosh, I hope it happens way before 2050.

[01:07:33] I was like, I thought you were going to say 2030.

[01:07:35] We need to adjust that to 2030.

[01:07:38] How are we going to do it?

[01:07:40] Again, I would sort of say my call to action is to every person listening to this, to every person who consumes food, which is everyone.

[01:07:50] Make one decision.

[01:07:52] Decide that one thing in your regular rotation is going to be regenerative and just start there.

[01:07:57] I think if every single person bought one product and they chose to make it regenerative, like I said, it could be your cooking oil.

[01:08:05] It could be your rice.

[01:08:05] It could be your snack.

[01:08:07] It could be anything in your regular rotation that you buy at the grocery store.

[01:08:13] Buy one.

[01:08:14] And I would also say, ask the grocery store.

[01:08:17] Hey, why don't you have more regenerative brands?

[01:08:19] Hey, why don't you have more regenerative brands?

[01:08:21] I think people really underestimate.

[01:08:23] And I don't think they realize, like, actually, that matters.

[01:08:27] Like, the people in the store that are asking you if you need help, who are restocking, who are merchandising, they're the eyes and ears of the buyers.

[01:08:34] And it actually does make a difference.

[01:08:38] And then I'd say, like, post about it.

[01:08:40] I mean, look, we live in a social media world.

[01:08:42] It's kind of amazing how much grocery buyers, right?

[01:08:45] They care about your social media presence.

[01:08:47] So much social media content is around where people are shopping in a grocery store and what's in their basket and their unboxing.

[01:08:54] So I would also say to someone, you know, everyone listening, make one decision and then also tell someone about it.

[01:09:00] Talk about it.

[01:09:01] Bring it over to a friend's house.

[01:09:03] Make a point to share what you're doing.

[01:09:05] You'd be amazed to see how contagious that is.

[01:09:09] But we're not talking about it.

[01:09:10] I love that answer.

[01:09:11] And what is so cool about it.

[01:09:12] Come on.

[01:09:12] That's a Starbucks play right there.

[01:09:14] I'm not buying that.

[01:09:16] What's the Starbucks play?

[01:09:18] 2050.

[01:09:19] That's way too far.

[01:09:20] Hey, I mean, we might have to make it 2030.

[01:09:24] We'll have to reevaluate.

[01:09:25] That are trackable and quicker.

[01:09:27] 2050.

[01:09:28] I don't know.

[01:09:28] We might live on the moon by then.

[01:09:30] Who knows?

[01:09:31] Possible.

[01:09:32] We'll reevaluate.

[01:09:33] What I love about your answer is that there really is a regenerative brand for just about every single category today.

[01:09:39] I can't say that they're all widely available or nationally available, but to make that decision is not unrealistic at all.

[01:09:44] Well, I would disagree with you.

[01:09:45] They are.

[01:09:46] We have the internet.

[01:09:48] I hear that also all the time.

[01:09:50] Totally true.

[01:09:50] I'm like, you have the World Wide Web.

[01:09:52] It is de facto nationally available today.

[01:09:55] Like, there are no excuses.

[01:09:57] We don't live in a world where you can't get anything.

[01:09:59] All of these brands ship online.

[01:10:02] Every single one.

[01:10:04] It's true.

[01:10:04] Even the regenerative ice cream brand ships online, you know?

[01:10:07] So no excuses.

[01:10:08] Yeah.

[01:10:09] By the way, I really want to do a collab with Alex if you're listening.

[01:10:13] We know.

[01:10:13] I mean, we know how to get you in touch with them.

[01:10:16] So that's no problem.

[01:10:17] But that's also part of it.

[01:10:19] I mean, you asked too, how do you get it to be 50%.

[01:10:21] I think a lot of it too is more collaboration.

[01:10:24] So sorry, we're really going to go on a tangent now.

[01:10:27] I keep saying too, like you go to Expo West.

[01:10:31] I want to see an entire lane of all the regenerative brands saying, and I've tried to do this.

[01:10:36] We wanted to do it for Giving Tuesday, but we couldn't get enough people there.

[01:10:40] Like we already decided what we're doing, right?

[01:10:42] Like the more that we are a pack, I actually think the brands having this pack mentality will do a lot.

[01:10:49] I think if we all said, you know what?

[01:10:50] We want to be on the same.

[01:10:52] We're going to share costs.

[01:10:53] We're going to work together.

[01:10:54] And we're going to take an entire lane.

[01:10:57] You better believe every report out of Expo West from every grocery buyer is like regeneratives here.

[01:11:02] The problem is we're, I think everyone is playing too much in their own game.

[01:11:08] And, you know, it's one of the things I learned from restaurants that I think is very different than a CPG mentality.

[01:11:13] And again, unpopular perspective to some slash many investors.

[01:11:20] Hospitality companies all help each other.

[01:11:21] Like people said, you know, with all the restaurant relief work that I did, they said, how do you do it?

[01:11:25] I go, we all know each other.

[01:11:27] We're all two degrees of separation and we all help each other.

[01:11:31] What do you do with this company?

[01:11:32] Who's your accountant?

[01:11:33] We still have so many text message groups.

[01:11:36] Who's got a plumber?

[01:11:37] Who does fire, you know, who's their fire consultant?

[01:11:40] You know, what contractor do you like?

[01:11:42] Everyone shares.

[01:11:43] CPG tends to be really much more cutthroat and competitive.

[01:11:47] But I actually think if regen companies and brands took much more of a hospitality perspective, it's sort of like how you damn the man, right?

[01:11:55] You like have to create the moment together.

[01:11:57] I would like to see regen brands deciding for Earth Month, right?

[01:12:01] Like if we all did a joint campaign, it's not that many right now.

[01:12:05] If everyone did a joint campaign, you would see such a tidal wave.

[01:12:10] And I think you would get much more media attention because they can't write us.

[01:12:13] I think a lot of that narrative right now is like it's niche.

[01:12:16] First of all, it's actually not niche.

[01:12:18] And there's a ton of companies that are big that are very successful across all industries.

[01:12:24] It's not niche.

[01:12:25] But again, that's what they want consumers to believe.

[01:12:28] That's what they want CPG founders to think.

[01:12:30] I think it's like big food getting in your head.

[01:12:33] It's Tesla getting in your head.

[01:12:35] That doesn't make it real.

[01:12:36] But I do think even like on the tactical sense, I would like to see much more collaboration and coming together to make a bigger moment.

[01:12:48] Like I just think that would change.

[01:12:50] Like I said, Expo West.

[01:12:51] Think about it.

[01:12:52] If one full lean was a regen moment, you better believe that would be the top trend that came out of that report.

[01:13:01] Well, AC and I have been smirking this whole time because you're basically like validating our exact theory of change.

[01:13:07] And the work that we've been doing for the last three years is getting more collaboration within regenerative CPG.

[01:13:12] So we'd love to hear.

[01:13:13] I want to do it, Alex.

[01:13:14] I want to get ice cream, you know, everywhere.

[01:13:16] And again, even those things like we did a partnership with Patagonia Provisions for Holiday with the Cookbook.

[01:13:22] We did a little, you know, gift box for them.

[01:13:26] I happen to be friends with the provisions team, but we talk regularly.

[01:13:29] Like, where are you going?

[01:13:30] What are you doing?

[01:13:31] What's your struggle?

[01:13:32] What are you thinking about?

[01:13:33] Right?

[01:13:34] Like that stuff is better.

[01:13:37] Right?

[01:13:37] The more that we are helping each other, the more, hey, I know this grocery buyer.

[01:13:42] Oh, this is what they told me.

[01:13:43] Oh, this is what they're charging me.

[01:13:44] Did you get, you know, did you get half refill?

[01:13:47] Did you get full refill?

[01:13:48] We got it.

[01:13:49] The best thing we can do, I think, for our impact and for our future is to start to work really, really closely together.

[01:13:58] Yeah.

[01:13:59] Well, I feel a lot better about the work that we're doing in our new trade association because I think we're working on every single thing you've listed.

[01:14:04] And it sounds like Westborn is going to be a great new member in 2025.

[01:14:08] We're in.

[01:14:09] We're in.

[01:14:11] Awesome.

[01:14:11] Thank you all so much.

[01:14:12] This was so fun.

[01:14:13] And I could talk for hours, hours more.

[01:14:15] It's been super, super cool.

[01:14:17] I want to drive all of the listeners to the website.

[01:14:18] It's westborn, B-O-U-R-N-E dot com to check out the holiday gift box and the avocado oils and all the other cool things on the site.

[01:14:26] And thank you again so much for the time.

[01:14:28] Share with a friend.

[01:14:29] Send it to a friend.

[01:14:30] You know, again, pay it forward is the name of our game.

[01:14:35] Thanks, Camilla.

[01:14:36] Appreciate you.

[01:14:36] For transcripts, show notes, and more information on this episode, check out our website, regen-brands.com.

[01:14:47] That is regen-brands.com.

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[01:15:16] Thanks so much for tuning into the Regen Brands Podcast.

[01:15:19] We hope you learned something new in this episode, and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, your talent, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system.

[01:15:29] Love you guys.